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Joel Godi

In a fascinating conversation with Joel Godi; the founder & CEO of Neurogifted. A neurodivergent champion, and an AuDHD entrepreneur. Candid and refreshingly honest, Joel shares his wisdom and experiences with us. This is a survivor's story about reinventing himself. He also makes a strong case for entrepreneurship and how it has finally helped him achieve his potential. A social psychologist by profession, he advocates, going forward, diversity is the key to successful sustenance. 

 

Why did you choose to be an entrepreneur?

Frankly, I don't think I had a choice in the matter. Because no matter where I was, at school, or work, I knew that meant having a very difficult time adjusting to the environments, both sensory and social. It was just impossible for me to predict what kind of environment I would be able to perform in, or in which environment I would not be able to perform. I have worked in the Gulf; I have worked in India in different cities, but my staying power was like two or three years. I couldn't stay in one place for much longer. Eventually, it led to burnout. I came to a point where I just collapsed - unable to wake up for weeks. Sometimes I would get a high fever. And it took me a lot of time to recover from those things.

I had no idea I was autistic or ADHD until much later in life. It became very clear by the time I was 30 that I could not continue to survive in this kind of environment, but not knowing what the reasons were, I found it very difficult to explain to my family and my elders, why I was not able to stick with a job. As a result, I began to consider working as a freelancer.

In the late 90s, English was a superpower. So, I capitalized on that, and I got into learning and development as a trainer and started doing those kinds of things. When I realized it was providing me with enough income, I quit the 9 to 5 job scene. So, it was never a plan. There was just no survival option for me in a regular job.

Making the transition from working for someone to being your own boss requires a great deal of courage. Did you not face the same challenges as a trainer because again, you are in front of an audience?

 

As a trainer, I could play to my strengths. For example, if it was a training session of two days' duration, it wasn't something that I had to do every day. I could be mentally prepared and set it up in such a way that I wouldn't be overwhelmed. I would train for about an hour and a half and then slip into an activity for example that would give me the space to recover.  But for me, I design how I work based on my spoons for the day - my 'spoons capacity'. But somehow this strategy always worked out for everybody. I probably realized that other people also have their own limitations. I have a strong intuition. Even if I take a 40-minute session and I know I'm reaching the limits of my capacity, then others must be in a similar situation as well. The adjustments we make for neurodivergent people are generally welcomed and appreciated by neurotypicals too, whether they realize it or not.

In the traditional workplace, they expect you to work nine to five. That's not how my brain works. I cannot work 24/7. An ebb follows a surge in energy levels. I can't turn over work from nine to five. That's just not my thing. So that's why it was a matter of survival for me. A decade later, when I discovered my neurodiversity, it all fell into place. At that point in time, it was something I had kept to myself. Nobody understood why I was playing with my life, being a psychologist, and not exploring all the possibilities around me. But that's just how it is. That's the life of a neurodivergent.

 

How did your family cope with all the changes?

I would just come home one day and they wouldn't understand. Why would you leave a good job? Back in 97, in Dubai, you just had to go there on a tourist visa and you would get a job. That was how easy it was. Because the city was just getting started. And when I went there, I got a good job in a good company. The manager was from Hyderabad and because I was also from Hyderabad, she immediately placed me in her department and made me an assistant manager. So, I started off on a good note. But then two years later, I quit suddenly. It was a good job with a good salary with a family visa, which was very difficult to get. Having a car, driver, everything. I came back to India not knowing what was next. But one thing I knew was that I couldn't survive anymore in that environment.

My family took it badly. Of course, they thought I was irresponsible. I used to believe that I lacked ambition and other such qualities. In traditional families, you know, the way it works. For instance, your son gets a good job. It's as valuable as oxygen, and he squanders it. It happened repeatedly in my life. And they came to a point where they just left me on my own. It was not a happy situation in my house. I knew they were very disappointed in me. I couldn't explain myself, and I couldn't make them happy as well.

How did you push yourself to get a diagnosis? Did someone urge you to look into it? Or is it your background in social psychology? 

One way is to look at it as divine intervention. I was desperate about the way I was dealing with the outside world. I couldn't share this with anyone. So I would just walk away from meetings, just say that I got a call, get out, and take a rickshaw. I couldn't take it anymore. I knew that in half an hour; I had to go home and lock myself in my room for my safety. People couldn't understand my strange behavior. How could they? And one moment, I'm like, right there, and I'm so focused, and I'm so energetic, and then, boom. The next moment, I'm running away and acting strange. People assumed I was an eccentric person. They imagined their own things. Some people thought I was high, others thought it was a cycle, and others interpreted it differently. I had a road accident when I was 40. I had a severe head injury. Because of this, I was feeling dizzy, and I lost my sleep. I could not sleep without tablets. This went on for a few weeks, and the doctors suggested I see a psychiatrist to talk about my sleep patterns. In the second meeting itself, he looked at my prior history of sleep deprivation and, when he suggested further inquiry, we went in, and we had a diagnosis of ADHD. And later the autism diagnosis comes out. And that was, for me, a shock!  Because, on top of everything else, I didn't want to give anybody any more bad news about my life. I didn't want to accept it. I just kept it to myself. However, there was personal healing for me, knowing that, I had a lot of answers now for the way my work, and my personal life, the way they had turned out.

There was clarity in my mind, what I could do and could not do. But like I said, I did not share this with anyone. Three years later, I found the comfort within me to accept my reality. Even today in my family, this is one topic they will not talk about.

What year did the accident occur? How did things progress from there?

This was 2011. I finally accepted my diagnosis in 2014. In 2015, I began my advocacy and activism for neuroinclusion. When it became clear that this was the reason my life had turned out the way it had, I decided I needed to do something about it. I didn't want anyone to go through what I had gone through due to ignorance. The reason for my thought process was simple. I could imagine so many people would commit suicide in similar circumstances. I was a survivor, and I should help others also survive. And that's how I started my work in neurodiversity in 2015.

By 2015, I had also acquired deep knowledge about neurodiversity. As I was discovering my own neurodiversity, trying to find answers to my life, I connected with friends across the globe. At that time, many of us are just getting into active emailing; so I connected with friends in the US and India, who I made sure were not in my inner circle, but more like acquaintances. That felt like a safe place to talk about my neurodivergence. And, you know, one person connected me to another. Finally, I ended up working on some amazing research projects on neurodiversity between 2015 and 2017. In 2017, a book was released by the University of Washington, Autism at work. That was a turning point for me as an organizational professional. So those two years was a complete learning experience. It's only after that that I learned to develop a lot of content and training materials. Many things fell into place: my lived experience, the life experience of my understanding of organizations, and my specialization in social psychology. And I was more interested in adult neurodivergence, rather than autism in children. I felt I could contribute a lot more in this space. It is easier for me to understand neurodivergence in the social context, workplace culture, religion, and things like that. So that helped me put out a lot of content that is being used across the world today. I'm excited about that.

 

What do you think are your strengths as  an entrepreneur?

I have 3-4 clear strengths. Although I am autistic, ADHD is a dominant factor in my life. This combination presents a lot of uncertainty in how I'm going to respond to different situations. Sometimes it's my autism, and other times it's my ADHD that's reacting to various stimuli. My key strengths are my hyper-focus ability, out-of-the-box thinking, pattern recognition, and creativity.

My creativity and innovative ideas are, again, probably the best things about me. My teammates and colleagues appreciate this aspect of mine. When something comes up for discussion, and we decide to continue the next day, by the next morning, I come up with something substantial, be it a new theory, a concept, a game, or a new activity. On that front, it's really great. I am most productive between the hours of 12 a.m. and 5 a.m. when the rest of the world is sleeping. But I can't do it 24/7. I am available to deliver 3-4 days a week at best. Every week, I have to find a way to break the pattern of staying awake and working at night. Being able to sleep through the night is a constant struggle for me, but I enjoy the flip side because of the benefits it provides. Earlier, I tried using pills to go to sleep, trying to conform to the worldview of sleeping at night. But now I just let me be me.

And I also have good pattern recognition. When I converse with people, I'm able to predict and get insights from their behaviors, peek into their mindsets, and their thought processes. And some say it's because of my background in psychology, but I think it's because of my pattern recognition skills, one word, or one thing I can catch, and, develop on that and, and bring forth, my views. This helps us in our team strategies in terms of better outcomes in our work; in negotiations, and so many other things.

 What are the challenges you face? Are the challenges slightly different in an Indian context?

The neurodiversity experience, and the cultural experiences, are very different. First, there is a clear difference between how East and West experience neurodiversity. For instance, even basic things like eye contact, for example, are viewed and understood differently across cultures, and things like that. In my case, I've developed my ability for eye contact; I know I can look at somebody without actually looking at their face. More like a self-mechanism. I might look straight into your eyes, but I'm not even registering anything. I'm blank. These are things you develop with age, you develop these coping mechanisms to overcome those challenges.

I don't generally make a good first impression. There is a basic communication gap. Sometimes, even for a basic question, my answers could be way off the mark. Even now, while I'm talking to you, that might be the case. I'll be talking, but my brain is thinking 10 steps ahead, and I'm trying to catch up with what it's saying. And it's giving me 10 things to say at the same time, and I have to constantly pick and choose. So, a lot is happening behind one simple articulation and being able to give out one simple answer. There's always an incomplete sentence thrown in which I don't know why I said those things. But now I think as an adult, that doesn't happen too often. But as a youngster, this was the case.

 I have difficulties completing jobs. I don't stick to one thing; I do 10 things at a time. They're all moving simultaneously. I'll be doing something and half an hour later, I'll be working on something else. I can't work steadily on one thing. These are challenges where I need some co-workers' support, which my colleagues give me. They keep me on track and focused. Because time is important. We have deadlines to meet and things like that.

Another thing that I'm impacted by is my PDA, pathological demand avoidance. Until I am pushed to the brink, I won't start something. If repeatedly told to do something, my brain just refuses to do it. It's task avoidance - as simple as that. I might sit quietly for 10 days and then complete the task in the last 4 hrs. All these traits are impractical when you have to be a team player. There are many challenges in the workplace. If you have an understanding team, which fortunately I did create for myself, it works better that way. The reason why I do well in my work is because of the environment I could create around me. That includes my colleagues. Because I'm a freelancer, I could create a safe zone where I can operate. But unpredictability is always there. I can bounce back immediately because of the support I get.

My colleagues probably were also thrown off at first, but that's how they learned how to collaborate and work with a neurodivergent. So, it was as much of a learning curve for me as it was for them.

 

Many autistics are now starting their own entrepreneurial journey in India. As a neurodivergent, what would you tell the parents on how to mentor their young adults?

Start early. Don't look for a cure. Don't waste time trying to rewire the brain through therapies. It's a clear NO. It's not going to happen. Nurture the strengths, find them, and develop coping mechanisms to mitigate the challenges. Many parents waste a good 10 years just trying to find some kind of cure. And that's a waste of valuable time and resources. They lose a lot of time by which time they're also exhausted financially, mentally, and emotionally - in so many ways.

The formative years are very important. I want parents to be practical. And invest money in the right place to help the child nurture his/her strengths, to be able to survive in this world. This world is not going to change overnight. That's the reality. One can even create small bubbles of safety - safe zones. And within those areas, we can work to our strengths. Today, I am 52. I lost so much time. If a person at 22 is empowered to do the same, just imagine what they can do for themselves.

Advocacy is very important for a neurodivergent to survive as an adult. Many people don't know how to advocate for themselves. And the last thing, self-regulation, whether it is emotional regulation, you need to know how to manage your spoons.

(Joel is a firm believer in the spoon theory, a disability metaphor used to explain the diminished amount of mental and physical energy available for living and productive tasks due to disability or chronic illness. Else, it can lead to burnout, and ultimately might even lead to meltdowns, which is not good at all.)

Awareness building across the board is the key, not just for parents. Don't delay once you have identified the strengths. This is the piece of advice I would like to give the parents.

 

Could you tell us about the outreach initiatives or more so the highlights of your entrepreneurial career?

I am fortunate to have lived experience, life experience on organizational matters, and a learned experience being a student of social psychology. At 50+, I have enough life experience. Many of the arguments that we make for neurodiversity in our programs, you will not hear anywhere in the world. We do a lot of focused awareness-building in our basic talks. Our work is mostly within organizations. Nonetheless, people do approach us for different initiatives. I also represent the community in public forums. But the idea is awareness building and sensitization across the board. Whoever the group is, whether it's an organization or any other social group, everyone needs to understand that neurodiversity is about more than just being a charity proposition; it's about survival for all of us and not just the neurodivergent population. Our attempts to become like one (monoculture) led to the loss of civilizations and decline of organizational performance. Diversity is what keeps us going, rejuvenated and sustainable. Not only for the safety of neurodivergents, for your own sake, for the future of our species, and our children's future, one needs to make sure that you're invested in our well-being. And we have a lot of theories to support that argument.  

Content is key. The content that we have developed, the tools, and the know-how we share; it's at a very different scale. We've worked and collaborated across the globe - in the US, UK, and now in Australia. The reality is that we're all learning from each other's experiences. No one has all the answers. The knowledge is not accumulated in one or two places. It's distributed and evolving constantly. In our workshops, we have developed games; board games, and card games that teach others about neurodiversity, you don't have to learn it as a subject, you can play a game, and you can learn a strategy, how to implement neurodiversity in an organization just by playing board games. In different ways, we have brought forth learning experiences for different groups.

We also do 2-3 free trainings a year, but our bandwidth is also low due to work commitments. One is basic neurodiversity 101. The second one is workplace neuro inclusion. Both are on basics. They act as conversation starters within the organization. And that helps the organization, to test the ground before they talk can actively about it, and even plan for the hiring. It's very wrong for a company to go directly and start hiring people. Because what happens when you hire and you don't have the capacity or the capability to create safe zones for these people? Six months to one year later, they burn out and walk away. This is a reality. And I see that in many companies, they hire 8 or 10 people. No strategy. At the same time, I see other companies, actually spending time on creating that environment, the processes, and the policies, and then doing the thing because it is a top-down model.

As a result, our outreach is directed at helping organizations create systems within their organizations, that will help them create new processes and procedures on their own. We deliver only to clients because most of it is signature content. And cannot be put in the public domain.

Thank you, Joel Godi, for this incredible conversation. It has been super helpful in understanding the dynamics of what goes on at both a personal and organizational level, and in gaining an understanding of supporting neurodivergents.

Thank you.